Picking up on Richard's idea of a spectrum, I look at the problems of trying to fit everything into a single unity and the alternative, which is to invoke another realm to deal with what does not make sense in this realm.
My post was made on 07 Jul 2008 at 08:39 pm:
Hi Richard. You talk about a spectrum with materialism at one end and experience at the other. I like the idea that everything is ultimately hooked up and forms a complete system but I'm not sure that the evidence is compelling. It is, of course, the view which dominated philosophy 100 years or so ago known as Post Kantian Hegelian Idealism or just Idealism for short. The idea was that everything was a part of the Absolute and it did seem to solve a lot of problems at the time, not that I was around then, I hastily add. It also created some problems as in the case of the theologian who was accused of denying the divinity of Jesus. His reply was "I have never denied the divinity of any man!" In an age in which we think materially and mathematically it is easy to believe that all matter originates from one atom which explodes and starts a huge reaction and results in the cosmos. I suppose you could argue that seemingly non material entities were, in fact, made of the same atoms but they are so arranged as to look different. I dare say the makers of Lego would be overjoyed to think that we live in a Lego universe in which you can make anything from a box of building bricks. However, I don't buy it. This is more process stuff and I think the logic of it is that everything is made of matter, but some things just don't look as if they are. It is naive materialism in disguise. What I am trying to assert is that process is what matter does and understanding is what process and matter can't do. Therefore - and it's the biggest therefore in philosophy - matter is not the only thing to exist. Moreover, matter does not explain a lot of things with which we are familiar. In particular, it does not explain the grand scheme of things. As long as matter goes on recycling itself, all is well. However, the issue of beginnings and endings does not make sense in a world of matter alone.
The whole idea of something "other than" or just different provides, I think, a more attractive solution to these weighty philosophical problems. It takes us into the same logical territory as religion has been in throughout history. The basic idea of God is that he is "other than" and has to cross over or transcend into our world in order to communicate with us. Now, I would not go so far as to argue for the existence of God as an entity. I do think that is a bridge too far. But I do think there is a realm unreachable and unfathomable, and part of my thinking is directed by the nature of our own world and our own experiences.
In itself the non material is not that difficult to get your head around. We can all understand, for example, the concept of language. It is very evident and clearly, in essence, non material, although we communicate it through material channels. The problem, I think, that arises, is that we think about things as having existence and that is a more perplexing word. We use the word existence in just about every conceivable way. Matter exists. Ideas exist. But what is existence?
Well, I don't know how much sense you will make of this but I'm going to pause now to get your response.
Peter Rayner
Richard's response is uncompromising in its rejection of any kind of other world explanation although he accepts that such a thing cannot be disproved. He does, however, turn the issue from "how" to "why".
Richard's post was made on 14 Jul 2008 at 09:41 am:
Hi Peter, I find myself having to think twice before I post this just to make sure I've taken in everything, and I appreciate you informing me about what my thoughts were, as I haven't learnt or read much of the post-Kant era of Philosophy. Without going off in a tangent, I find myself in a position at the moment where I am going to respectively disagree with you about your point involving "other than" and "God".
I think for the universe to work properly, if there is a "God", then I do think if this God is untouchable and in a transcendent universe to our own, then anything from our universe should be able to transcend into the other world beyond what we know. As Albert Einstein said, "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."
However, if the transcendent beings including God and spirits of the dead (I won't argue for the dead people's existence), are in another universe, and people in our material world do come across them, then what is to say our worlds aren't as far apart as we think? Another thought that crops up is that if this does happen, would we actually know if we were in a different world to our own? Because when we dream whilst asleep, we are in a different dimension to what anyone else can experience this could be linked to another world apart from our main conscious material world, and I thought that the human mind and the unconscious part of the brain could be the key to unravelling the mystery involving other worldly type experiences people have.
As well as these thoughts though, I do have doubts about whether one can actively appear in God's world [if it does exist], without having to morbidly and reluctantly sacrifice life in the world we know. Which from my perspective, it's a sacrifice I would never be willing to make whilst I am me!
Descartes touches on the topic of existence, famously saying "I am I think I am, therefore I am" which I think is the best possible answer anyone can come up with without some form of Godly entity confirming and explaining to everyone what existence actually is. Which is obviously a very highly unlikely occurence.
In some form of conclusion, to wrap up my post, and in order to pause to await your response, I am reluctant to agree with an existence of another world, but at the same time I don't want to pass it off either, as it could be a possibility as much as it doesn't exist. However, existence I think is exactly what it is, how, who, when and what we know. Without existence there is nothing, and the more science evolves, the more I think existence is less doubtful. The question I would ask is why do we exist?.. I think we find we've gone around in a circle in our thoughts. lol
Richard Debnam
Tags: afterlife spectrum materialism experience Idealism divinity atoms process religion God transcend existence ideas other than why
My post was made on 07 Jul 2008 at 08:39 pm:
Hi Richard. You talk about a spectrum with materialism at one end and experience at the other. I like the idea that everything is ultimately hooked up and forms a complete system but I'm not sure that the evidence is compelling. It is, of course, the view which dominated philosophy 100 years or so ago known as Post Kantian Hegelian Idealism or just Idealism for short. The idea was that everything was a part of the Absolute and it did seem to solve a lot of problems at the time, not that I was around then, I hastily add. It also created some problems as in the case of the theologian who was accused of denying the divinity of Jesus. His reply was "I have never denied the divinity of any man!" In an age in which we think materially and mathematically it is easy to believe that all matter originates from one atom which explodes and starts a huge reaction and results in the cosmos. I suppose you could argue that seemingly non material entities were, in fact, made of the same atoms but they are so arranged as to look different. I dare say the makers of Lego would be overjoyed to think that we live in a Lego universe in which you can make anything from a box of building bricks. However, I don't buy it. This is more process stuff and I think the logic of it is that everything is made of matter, but some things just don't look as if they are. It is naive materialism in disguise. What I am trying to assert is that process is what matter does and understanding is what process and matter can't do. Therefore - and it's the biggest therefore in philosophy - matter is not the only thing to exist. Moreover, matter does not explain a lot of things with which we are familiar. In particular, it does not explain the grand scheme of things. As long as matter goes on recycling itself, all is well. However, the issue of beginnings and endings does not make sense in a world of matter alone.
The whole idea of something "other than" or just different provides, I think, a more attractive solution to these weighty philosophical problems. It takes us into the same logical territory as religion has been in throughout history. The basic idea of God is that he is "other than" and has to cross over or transcend into our world in order to communicate with us. Now, I would not go so far as to argue for the existence of God as an entity. I do think that is a bridge too far. But I do think there is a realm unreachable and unfathomable, and part of my thinking is directed by the nature of our own world and our own experiences.
In itself the non material is not that difficult to get your head around. We can all understand, for example, the concept of language. It is very evident and clearly, in essence, non material, although we communicate it through material channels. The problem, I think, that arises, is that we think about things as having existence and that is a more perplexing word. We use the word existence in just about every conceivable way. Matter exists. Ideas exist. But what is existence?
Well, I don't know how much sense you will make of this but I'm going to pause now to get your response.
Peter Rayner
Richard's response is uncompromising in its rejection of any kind of other world explanation although he accepts that such a thing cannot be disproved. He does, however, turn the issue from "how" to "why".
Richard's post was made on 14 Jul 2008 at 09:41 am:
Hi Peter, I find myself having to think twice before I post this just to make sure I've taken in everything, and I appreciate you informing me about what my thoughts were, as I haven't learnt or read much of the post-Kant era of Philosophy. Without going off in a tangent, I find myself in a position at the moment where I am going to respectively disagree with you about your point involving "other than" and "God".
I think for the universe to work properly, if there is a "God", then I do think if this God is untouchable and in a transcendent universe to our own, then anything from our universe should be able to transcend into the other world beyond what we know. As Albert Einstein said, "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."
However, if the transcendent beings including God and spirits of the dead (I won't argue for the dead people's existence), are in another universe, and people in our material world do come across them, then what is to say our worlds aren't as far apart as we think? Another thought that crops up is that if this does happen, would we actually know if we were in a different world to our own? Because when we dream whilst asleep, we are in a different dimension to what anyone else can experience this could be linked to another world apart from our main conscious material world, and I thought that the human mind and the unconscious part of the brain could be the key to unravelling the mystery involving other worldly type experiences people have.
As well as these thoughts though, I do have doubts about whether one can actively appear in God's world [if it does exist], without having to morbidly and reluctantly sacrifice life in the world we know. Which from my perspective, it's a sacrifice I would never be willing to make whilst I am me!
Descartes touches on the topic of existence, famously saying "I am I think I am, therefore I am" which I think is the best possible answer anyone can come up with without some form of Godly entity confirming and explaining to everyone what existence actually is. Which is obviously a very highly unlikely occurence.
In some form of conclusion, to wrap up my post, and in order to pause to await your response, I am reluctant to agree with an existence of another world, but at the same time I don't want to pass it off either, as it could be a possibility as much as it doesn't exist. However, existence I think is exactly what it is, how, who, when and what we know. Without existence there is nothing, and the more science evolves, the more I think existence is less doubtful. The question I would ask is why do we exist?.. I think we find we've gone around in a circle in our thoughts. lol
Richard Debnam
Tags: afterlife spectrum materialism experience Idealism divinity atoms process religion God transcend existence ideas other than why
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